Tennis Random, Random

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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#76

Post by mmmm8 »

ponchi101 wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:09 pm His family.
Who are experts at... what?
I believe Mischa can help him with his training, despite the polar opposite styles. Dad can help with... the snacks? Who takes care of his frequent PR issues? Mom?
He seemed so grounded just a few years ago.
Both his parents were professional tennis players and his father was Soviet No. 1 and coached him and Mischa for some time.

I'm guessing no one is lining up to deal with the business side of things.
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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#77

Post by meganfernandez »

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I thought long and hard about sending this comment to Jon this week. I didn't think he'd run it. I wanted to unpack a lot more to explain why it bothers me. I'm all for giving Mike Tyson a second chance, but my immediate reaction to seeing him a lot has definite value, too - because it's easy to talk yourself into thinking it's no big deal. But to me, it is. Not so much his mere presence as seeing the biggest people in the sport loving him, laughing with him, admiring him... it gives the impression that they simply don't care what women would think about that and they really don't take domestic abuse very seriously. And I have a feeling that's actually true. Why do we treat rapists more generously than racists, and abusers more generously than molesters? (I'd say this goes for homophobia, too - I imagine this is how gay people feel when they see people apparently accepting Tennys Sandgren's transgressions. I'd be embarrassed if my gay friends saw me go to one of his matches. I don't think either he or Mike Tyson are awful people. There's more to them than their sins. They might genuinely have changed. But when you see them exalted in your sport, it stings.)

The quote thing - it was just jarring to see Mouratoglou having this conversation with him. I get it, it had nothing to do with Tyson's past as an abuser, and it's actually a good point about pressure. In the moment, of course you stay in the interview and respect your guest. I wish he had thought twice about posting it, unless it was purely live. I'm willing to bet it didn't even cross his mind.

(BTW - thinking about it, I'm sure I don't have a clear view of how racists are actually treated. Maybe there are plenty of racists who are exalted in tennis the same way. So I'm sorry if I have misjudged that.)
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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#78

Post by skatingfan »

meganfernandez wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:05 pm Mailbag.pngI thought long and hard about sending this comment to Jon this week. I didn't think he'd run it. I wanted to unpack a lot more to explain why it bothers me. I'm all for giving Mike Tyson a second chance, but my immediate reaction to seeing him a lot has definite value, too - because it's easy to talk yourself into thinking it's no big deal. But to me, it is. Not so much his mere presence as seeing the biggest people in the sport loving him, laughing with him, admiring him... it gives the impression that they simply don't care what women would think about that and they really don't take domestic abuse very seriously. And I have a feeling that's actually true. Why do we treat rapists more generously than racists, and abusers more generously than molesters? (I'd say this goes for homophobia, too - I imagine this is how gay people feel when they see people apparently accepting Tennys Sandgren's transgressions. I'd be embarrassed if my gay friends saw me go to one of his matches. I don't think either he or Mike Tyson are awful people. There's more to them than their sins. They might genuinely have changed. But when you see them exalted in your sport, it stings.)

The quote thing - it was just jarring to see Mouratoglou having this conversation with him. I get it, it had nothing to do with Tyson's past as an abuser, and it's actually a good point about pressure. In the moment, of course you stay in the interview and respect your guest. I wish he had thought twice about posting it, unless it was purely live. I'm willing to bet it didn't even cross his mind.

(BTW - thinking about it, I'm sure I don't have a clear view of how racists are actually treated. Maybe there are plenty of racists who are exalted in tennis the same way. So I'm sorry if I have misjudged that.)
Do you have a link @meganfernandez? I can't read the images you posted.
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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#79

Post by ponchi101 »

The only part in which I would disagree with you, Megan, is that Tyson did his time. In theory, he paid the price. This sets him apart from a lot of people that we know did something and have not even stepped in court.
That is the societal contract (in theory). You did your time, the slate is "clean".
It reminds me of another case. The killer of John Lennon was sentenced to 20 years in prison after his trial. But that was in 1980 (trial in 81). So in reality, this man, who is still in prison, is serving "life" (he has been denied parole 11 times) when the law passed a sentence of 20 years.
I understand. He murdered somebody. But the societal contract cannot work on the basis that because you killed somebody "special" (which would be biased) then the law does not apply to you in the opposite direction: you can have a sentenced passed by the system extended indefinitely, simply because of perception.

I see your point. Tyson did terrible things. But then he paid his price. I believe he can return to society in full. We have to keep an eye on him, but to me, his slate is clean.

BTW. In these times of slow tennis news, if I were Jon I would print your letter. It touches an interesting subject, and one well worth talking about. Keep us posted if he does, and please link it. I would like to read other opinions.
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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#80

Post by ti-amie »

Also Tyson was mismanaged in his early years. He seems to have found a stable home environment and mental health regimen. He did his time. He is entitled to have a second chance.
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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#81

Post by mmmm8 »

meganfernandez wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:16 pm
ponchi101 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:02 pm Here in Bogota we can get an antigen/antibody test in 4 hours. One company has set up shop at the airport and you can get the test in 2. People are going to the airport a little earlier (of, a couple of hours earlier), get the test, and get the result there, on the spot. The good thing about that is that you don't get the weird scenario of getting your test yesterday, results on the same day, and then during the afternoon you rubbed elbows with somebody that passed it along.
The PCR is the one that can't be shortened, so the three days of waiting to get the results may be the three days in which you catch it. I would trust that one a little less.
Does the result of the antibody test have any bearing on whether someone boards a plane or not? I can't imagine it does. So what's the point?
It depends on the airline. My friends flew NY to Bogota on Avianca a couple months ago and the airline required a negative test in the last 24 hours (they had one from less than 72 hours before and it wasn't accepted). (I'm talking about the Antigen test, not the antibody test)
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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#82

Post by mmmm8 »

I have the same reaction as Megan. Agree - he did his time, so this isn't saying he can't have a public life. But we should also not pretend he never did what he did just because he paid the price or admitted it or is a better person now. It's the adulation and completely ignoring his past that bother me.

For what it's worth, I had the same issue with Kobe Bryant. Yes, he appeared to have become a much better person, and his death was a loss, but it really bothered me his admitted rape of a woman was never acknowledged in the more recent years before his tragic death or the adulation after.
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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#83

Post by meganfernandez »

skatingfan wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:26 pm
meganfernandez wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:05 pm Mailbag.pngI thought long and hard about sending this comment to Jon this week. I didn't think he'd run it. I wanted to unpack a lot more to explain why it bothers me. I'm all for giving Mike Tyson a second chance, but my immediate reaction to seeing him a lot has definite value, too - because it's easy to talk yourself into thinking it's no big deal. But to me, it is. Not so much his mere presence as seeing the biggest people in the sport loving him, laughing with him, admiring him... it gives the impression that they simply don't care what women would think about that and they really don't take domestic abuse very seriously. And I have a feeling that's actually true. Why do we treat rapists more generously than racists, and abusers more generously than molesters? (I'd say this goes for homophobia, too - I imagine this is how gay people feel when they see people apparently accepting Tennys Sandgren's transgressions. I'd be embarrassed if my gay friends saw me go to one of his matches. I don't think either he or Mike Tyson are awful people. There's more to them than their sins. They might genuinely have changed. But when you see them exalted in your sport, it stings.)

The quote thing - it was just jarring to see Mouratoglou having this conversation with him. I get it, it had nothing to do with Tyson's past as an abuser, and it's actually a good point about pressure. In the moment, of course you stay in the interview and respect your guest. I wish he had thought twice about posting it, unless it was purely live. I'm willing to bet it didn't even cross his mind.

(BTW - thinking about it, I'm sure I don't have a clear view of how racists are actually treated. Maybe there are plenty of racists who are exalted in tennis the same way. So I'm sorry if I have misjudged that.)
Do you have a link @meganfernandez? I can't read the images you posted.
https://www.si.com/tennis/2021/01/20/ma ... tive-tests
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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#84

Post by JazzNU »

Greatly misjudging the racism part. And it's interesting to classify Sandgren as homophobic and nothing else.

I have legitimately no idea what you've posted in that photo, can't see it with a magnifying glass it's so tiny for me. But I do know that part of Mike Tyson being around the sport in large part is about his daughter, who is a junior tennis player that trains with the Mouratoglou Academy. She loves loves loves tennis, so she's gotten to meet her idols by going to various events in recent years because her dad can get in places.

I agree with @Ti that he served his time, a long time ago at that, and deserves a second chance. We can't exile every person for 30 years after their sentence has been served. Especially when they haven't been acting in a manner post-sentence that raises alarms. I think that's a dangerous approach to prison sentences and rehabilitating criminals. We want them to re-enter and become productive members of society. Not ostracize them and encourage them to become repeat offenders because their options are so limited.

Is part of the problem that tennis players specifically aren't constantly bringing up his 30 year old history or would you be as disturbed by him sitting in the Indianapolis Colts locker room with Peyton Manning or Frank Reich having a conversation too? Mike Tyson has been accepted back into the sports world after he served his time. It wasn't immediate by any stretch, but in the last 15 years or so, he's been around. It's not just tennis.


As an aside, I'm super confused on why this is in the AO thread. Is that related to the stuff we can't read in the image?
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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#85

Post by ponchi101 »

Devil's advocate: So do we go scarlet letter? You cannot clean your past, regardless of what you become in the future?
I am asking because I believe that adulation is a bit too much. It is not as if Tyson is in every SportsCenter, every night.
Plus, he did his time, fully. He was not let out on parole. That should count.
EDIT: writing while JazzNu was posting too. He says it better than I do.
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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#86

Post by meganfernandez »

mmmm8 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:55 pm I have the same reaction as Megan. Agree - he did his time, so this isn't saying he can't have a public life. But we should also not pretend he never did what he did just because he paid the price or admitted it or is a better person now. It's the adulation and completely ignoring his past that bother me.

For what it's worth, I had the same issue with Kobe Bryant. Yes, he appeared to have become a much better person, and his death was a loss, but it really bothered me his admitted rape of a woman was never acknowledged in the more recent years before his tragic death or the adulation after.
Last edited by meganfernandez on Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#87

Post by meganfernandez »

mmmm8 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:55 pm I have the same reaction as Megan. Agree - he did his time, so this isn't saying he can't have a public life. But we should also not pretend he never did what he did just because he paid the price or admitted it or is a better person now. It's the adulation and completely ignoring his past that bother me.

For what it's worth, I had the same issue with Kobe Bryant. Yes, he appeared to have become a much better person, and his death was a loss, but it really bothered me his admitted rape of a woman was never acknowledged in the more recent years before his tragic death or the adulation after.
I didn't meant to post this in the AO thread. Shoulda been Tennis Random, Random. Sorry. If someone wants to move it, go ahead.

Agree about Kobe. Thanks for the reply, too. Yes, it's the adulation. It's all a sign of where society ranks domestic violence as a serious crime. That's what I'm reminded of when I see him as an honored guest in tennis media. If the Menendez brothers ever manage to get out on parole, changed men, I guess we'll see them on the Tennis Channel reflecting on their years in the SoCal tennis scene. They deserve it!

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm drawing awareness to something that is important to me.
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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#88

Post by meganfernandez »

ponchi101 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:08 pm Devil's advocate: So do we go scarlet letter? You cannot clean your past, regardless of what you become in the future?
I am asking because I believe that adulation is a bit too much. It is not as if Tyson is in every SportsCenter, every night.
Plus, he did his time, fully. He was not let out on parole. That should count.
EDIT: writing while JazzNu was posting too. He says it better than I do.
Without giving it a scholarly level of consideration, I'd probably give violent criminals a scarlet letter for some things in public life, broadly speaking, yeah. But again, for me it's more about what Tyson's emerging guest-of-honor casting reveals about the tennis establishment.
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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#89

Post by Deuce »

ponchi101 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:04 pm The only part in which I would disagree with you, Megan, is that Tyson did his time. In theory, he paid the price. This sets him apart from a lot of people that we know did something and have not even stepped in court.
That is the societal contract (in theory). You did your time, the slate is "clean".
It reminds me of another case. The killer of John Lennon was sentenced to 20 years in prison after his trial. But that was in 1980 (trial in 81). So in reality, this man, who is still in prison, is serving "life" (he has been denied parole 11 times) when the law passed a sentence of 20 years.
I understand. He murdered somebody. But the societal contract cannot work on the basis that because you killed somebody "special" (which would be biased) then the law does not apply to you in the opposite direction: you can have a sentenced passed by the system extended indefinitely, simply because of perception.

I see your point. Tyson did terrible things. But then he paid his price. I believe he can return to society in full. We have to keep an eye on him, but to me, his slate is clean.

BTW. In these times of slow tennis news, if I were Jon I would print your letter. It touches an interesting subject, and one well worth talking about. Keep us posted if he does, and please link it. I would like to read other opinions.
^ I disagree. The slate is not clean, because when a person commits a disgusting act which harms another person or persons, that doesn't magically disappear after the offender has 'done his/her time'. The offence still occurred, and there is nothing that will ever erase that fact - not the largest fine in the world, not prison time, not a large donation to charity, not celebrity status - nothing erases factual happenings.

To say the slate is clean suggests that those who have committed disgusting acts which have harmed others, and have then 'served their punishment', should be viewed in the same light as those who have never committed a harmful act. That's ludicrous - and blatantly unjust. That should never happen. If you've done something significantly bad in which another person was deliberately harmed (or, in the case of something like driving drunk/high, even if the harm done was not blatantly deliberate), it should stay with you forever. Because you did it - and there is nothing that should allow anyone to pretend that the harmful act was not done.

I agree very much with mmmm8's sentiments on this subject.

Some people who've done harmful things do 'turn their life around', and become positive members of society - and everyone should be given that opportunity - a 'second chance', so to speak. But that doesn't erase the bad things they've done. 'Scarlet Letter'? Hell, yes. Give everyone an opportunity to become a better person and to be a positive force - yes - but NEVER forget the bad that they've done, because it is fact, and should definitely not 'magically vanish'.
From what I've seen, Mike Tyson is certainly not one of the people who've become positive members of society. I view him as being quite capable of re-offending in much the same manner as in his past. He is a very troubled man, and, sadly, very likely will be for the duration.
Certainly, there are reasons that Tyson is the person that he is - he wasn't nurtured or guided properly in his youth. But no-one can change or fix his youth now. And overcoming an inadequate and un-loving upbringing is one of the most difficult things to do in life.

The only way a person's slate can truly be clean is to not commit the harmful act in the first place. Those are the only people who truly possess a clean slate.
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Re: Tennis Random, Random

#90

Post by JazzNU »

ponchi101 wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:09 pm His family.
Who are experts at... what?
I believe Mischa can help him with his training, despite the polar opposite styles. Dad can help with... the snacks? Who takes care of his frequent PR issues? Mom?
He seemed so grounded just a few years ago.

I didn't see this earlier, but just thought I'd mention. It's been thought of for a couple of years now, so well before current problems, that once Mischa finally retired he'd become Sascha's manager. This would be more of a day to day manager, not in place of Fed's management team. If you recall, he's been in a legal fight with her previous management for about two years that just concluded in a few weeks ago. It was ugly. I assume the thinking was that keeping it in the family made it certain that he wouldn't run into the situation he'd been in with the last manager.

FWIW, Grounded is not a word I've ever thought to associate with Sascha.
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