Politics Random, Random

[ponchi101]

I wanted to give it a good thought because I know I am a minority here, regarding these opinions.
But if the USA is getting to the point in which people are losing their jobs because they hugged somebody, or kissed them on the cheek, then I believe that is extreme.
Reminds me of when I was in Egypt and we were warned not to extend our hand to our assistant, Fatima, because as a Muslim woman she would not shake it.

[patrick]

Speaking of Gaetz, what's the latest?

[dryrunguy]

I wanted to give it a good thought because I know I am a minority here, regarding these opinions.
But if the USA is getting to the point in which people are losing their jobs because they hugged somebody, or kissed them on the cheek, then I believe that is extreme.
Reminds me of when I was in Egypt and we were warned not to extend our hand to our assistant, Fatima, because as a Muslim woman she would not shake it.

A lot more than that occurred in Cuomo's case, ponchi. At least as I understand it. Case in point: the state trooper and another woman in the security detail. (https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-horri ... harassment). HIs behavior was super creepy, and he clearly felt he was entitled to behave that way because, "This is who I am."

But it's not complicated. Back when I used to make trips to the office, or even in cases where I run into people I haven't seen in a very long time, I didn't touch anyone, particularly women, unless they attempted to touch me first. This covers handshakes, hugs, kisses, and any other physical interaction. If someone wants to embrace me or kiss me on the cheek, they have to "make the first move" so to speak. Then I know it is not only welcome; it is encouraged. And I'll happily reciprocate.

[dryrunguy]

I wanted to give it a good thought because I know I am a minority here, regarding these opinions.
But if the USA is getting to the point in which people are losing their jobs because they hugged somebody, or kissed them on the cheek, then I believe that is extreme.
Reminds me of when I was in Egypt and we were warned not to extend our hand to our assistant, Fatima, because as a Muslim woman she would not shake it.

Of course, as soon as I hit "submit", I had the idea to frame it a different way.

You're in the elevator with your boss, or your boss's boss, or your boss's boss's boss. This person runs his index finger down your back, kisses you on the lips, grabs your ass, grabs your crotch, and makes sexually suggestive comments.

How would you feel about it? And how optimistic would you feel about your chances to retain your employment if you reported it to the appropriate corporate channels?

[ponchi101]

Your second scenario is a clear cut case. We would not disagree on that.
I disagree in the cases in which the offenses are things like: hugging, placing a hand on a shoulder, or kissing somebody on the cheek. They certainly may be not approved by the recipient, but to lose your job because of something like that, to me, is extreme. An entire career can be wiped out because of such a gesture and that, to me, is too much.

To me, it seems that too many of these cases are like trying to regulate humor, sexuality, manners or other human traits that have infinite shades of gray and then, if you did not behave in the "proper" manner, which was not defined, paying too high a price.
As I said, I know I am in the minority now.

[Suliso]

I think one would really need to see and hear to judge whether the given behavior is creepy or not. The line is thin and it's all so dependent on circumstances.

[Deuce]

It's all part of 'political correctness', people.

Boris Becker was crucified at Wimbledon this year because, as a commentator, he said that Karen Khachanov's girlfriend, who was being shown on the broadcast, is pretty. He was crucified mostly by women - who themselves are sure to make themselves pretty before leaving the house. But if anyone states that they are pretty, they object!
It's ridiculous.

The destructive 'political correctness' movement seeks to see cancer in every action, no matter how benign.

'Political correctness' is also largely responsible for discouraging interaction and honest relations between people, as everyone is terrified to say anything, for fear that someone might claim that it 'offends' them.

Seeing 'offensive behaviour' in everything - as 'political correctness' demands - also de-values legitimately unacceptable behaviour, in a 'crying wolf' type of way. When you equate a man saying that a woman is pretty with a man grabbing a woman's breast without consent, you have a clear (and twisted) agenda.

[mmmm8]

I've decided on this subject matter that it's ok to err on the side of the offended than the offenders. It may be overkill in some situations but if the overcorrection helps set a better societal norm, I'm ok with living in a world where Cuomo is not the Governor.

[ponchi101]

I've decided on this subject matter that it's ok to err on the side of the offended than the offenders. It may be overkill in some situations but if the overcorrection helps set a better societal norm, I'm ok with living in a world where Cuomo is not the Governor.

Serious question, I am not teasing you.
Isn't that a bit similar to saying that the standard of the law will be that you are guilty until proven innocent? The offended part makes her claim and it is up to the "offender" to prove her wrong? It would be a turn of the standard.
I know that women need and deserve to be respected. Here in Colombia, we have a serious problem with femicides and "general" (I can't find a proper word for this) violence against women, but if a male is immediately guilty just by an accusation, the proper balance of justice is still not achieved.

Plus, the political aspect of it. It is something that currently only applies to democrats, in the USA. I really could not care less about Cuomo as governor, but if he was a good administrator of the state, his demise may be of consequences that are not good for the general public.

[mmmm8]

I've decided on this subject matter that it's ok to err on the side of the offended than the offenders. It may be overkill in some situations but if the overcorrection helps set a better societal norm, I'm ok with living in a world where Cuomo is not the Governor.

Serious question, I am not teasing you.
Isn't that a bit similar to saying that the standard of the law will be that you are guilty until proven innocent? The offended part makes her claim and it is up to the "offender" to prove her wrong? It would be a turn of the standard.
I know that women need and deserve to be respected. Here in Colombia, we have a serious problem with femicides and "general" (I can't find a proper word for this) violence against women, but if a male is immediately guilty just by an accusation, the proper balance of justice is still not achieved.

Plus, the political aspect of it. It is something that currently only applies to democrats, in the USA. I really could not care less about Cuomo as governor, but if he was a good administrator of the state, his demise may be of consequences that are not good for the general public.

Let's distinguish between the law and MMMM8's opinion. I'd love to be the long arm of the law, but I'm not. My opinion doesn't rise to the level of a legal standard. No one should be convicted of a crime in a court of law without being proven guilty.

But in terms of the court of public opinion... meh. It's my personal opinion that I'm not going to disapprove of someone who can easily find another means of income losing their job because of multiple accusations of continued misconduct, even if it may be too severe a punishment for the type of misconduct committed.

To be clear, my opinion extends to misconduct by either gender. It would also extend beyond sexual harassments to various "isms." I'd rather someone accused of, say, racial discrimination by numerous people be fired from their job than keep it, even if there's not a recording of them going on a racist tirade. I don't think that's akin to saying "let's throw them in jail without evidence." I just think we're due some overcorrections, like I said.

[ponchi101]

...

To be clear, my opinion extends to misconduct by either gender. It would also extend beyond sexual harassments to various "isms." I'd rather someone accused of, say, racial discrimination by numerous people be fired from their job than keep it, even if there's not a recording of them going on a racist tirade. I don't think that's akin to saying "let's throw them in jail without evidence. I just think we're due some overcorrections, like I said.

I find that one fascinating. Hypothetical scenario:
Five people don't like the boss. He is sort of a jerk. So they decide to files unfounded complaints with HR, accusing him (as per your example) of racism.
By your example, the removal of the boss should proceed. That is where I have an issue.

[mmmm8]

...

To be clear, my opinion extends to misconduct by either gender. It would also extend beyond sexual harassments to various "isms." I'd rather someone accused of, say, racial discrimination by numerous people be fired from their job than keep it, even if there's not a recording of them going on a racist tirade. I don't think that's akin to saying "let's throw them in jail without evidence. I just think we're due some overcorrections, like I said.

I find that one fascinating. Hypothetical scenario:
Five people don't like the boss. He is sort of a jerk. So they decide to files unfounded complaints with HR, accusing him (as per your example) of racism.
By your example, the removal of the boss should proceed. That is where I have an issue.

In my experience, if 5 people don't like the boss to the point of trying to get them fired, there is a 99.9999999% chance the boss has committed enough actual offenses to get fired. I just don't buy the hypothetical of 5 people putting their own career and reputation at risk to make things like this up. One person or two people, maybe. 5 people? No.

[ti-amie]

I think NYS and especially NYC will suffer without Cuomo. Is he a bully, someone who governs by intimidation? Yes. So was Lyndon Johnson. I say that to say upstaters really don't like NYC and if Hochul consolidates power then our transit as well as other NYS agencies will suffer. The fact that everyone dislikes/disliked Cuomo doesn't mean he didn't perform a balancing act very well. If he had become a Republican he would probably still be in office.

[dryrunguy]

I don't know, ponchi. How much evidence do you need? There were multiple accusers, including a state trooper. State troopers tend to come with a presumed level of credibility due to their profession alone. (Whether they should or not is a different thread.) There was a huge Attorney General's Report that documented the allegations and provided what corroboration it could (e.g., the events could have plausibly occurred when and where an accuser said they did). Cuomo spent part of his time denying allegations and part of his time saying, "This is who I am. I'm just a touchy feely kind of guy."

As for this only happening to Democrats, I don't think that's true. We just notice it more when it happens to Democrats because Democrats are supposed to be better, particularly on this issue. Lots of Republicans get nailed for sexual misconduct. It happens all the time. We just don't bat an eye at it because it doesn't shock us.

[ti-amie]