Talk About Tennis 2.0

Serena giving statements that she will not retire. From the tone of what she said, she plans to play the USO.

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:23 pm Serena giving statements that she will not retire. From the tone of what she said, she plans to play the USO.

That is awesome news. I want to see what kind of outfit she will wear.

Deuce wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:38 pm

ti-amie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:03 pm

But the same can be said of the women players. Yet coaching is permitted for them (except at Majors).

As I've said many times - either allow in-match coaching or don't allow it, but make it the same for both the ATP and WTA - and at the ITF level for men and women.

I don't think Clarey (or anyone here) is out there saying he likes coaching being allowed for women either. Obviously, it should be consistent for WTA
/ATP/ITF

meganfernandez wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:56 am

ti-amie wrote:I agree about coaching at the Junior Level. It would be a sign of maturity, a graduation of sorts, for those players to not need on court/in match coaching when they join the main tour.

What about college?


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There should be coaching there too. If a player wants to move from college to the main tour(s) though that coaching should be tapered off at a certain point so that the player learns how to think their way through a match and not need their hand held every step of the way.

But. If you get to the stage that you are in college and are still being coached, then WHEN do you learn to navigate the sport at match level?
Plus: There are a considerable number of players that reached the pros and navigated it without a coach by their side. Sampras, Steffi, the Williams, Hingis, Rafa, Nole, Chrissie, Navs, Edberg, Becker, Connors, Borg, Lendl, Mac...... and many more. You see a pattern there. As a matter of fact, the sole player that I can think of that had a constant coaching career was Henin.
So this idea that you need coaching until you are of legal drinking age (in the USA) is kind of unproven, and the data don't support it.

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:44 pm But. If you get to the stage that you are in college and are still being coached, then WHEN do you learn to navigate the sport at match level?
Plus: There are a considerable number of players that reached the pros and navigated it without a coach by their side. Sampras, Steffi, the Williams, Hingis, Rafa, Nole, Chrissie, Navs, Edberg, Becker, Connors, Borg, Lendl, Mac...... and many more. You see a pattern there. As a matter of fact, the sole player that I can think of that had a constant coaching career was Henin.
So this idea that you need coaching until you are of legal drinking age (in the USA) is kind of unproven, and the data don't support it.

Ya know I really wonder what a coach to Rafa or Djokovic or Medevdev could really add to the conversation when watching tape of an opponent that the player has to play in the next match or even if these top players even do that sort of thing. Maybe a younger player who has not been on the tour a long time and has experience a lot of match play might do that but I really don't know if these top players really scout and prepare for the upcoming players or they just go out and just play there game as usual.

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:44 pm But. If you get to the stage that you are in college and are still being coached, then WHEN do you learn to navigate the sport at match level?
Plus: There are a considerable number of players that reached the pros and navigated it without a coach by their side. Sampras, Steffi, the Williams, Hingis, Rafa, Nole, Chrissie, Navs, Edberg, Becker, Connors, Borg, Lendl, Mac...... and many more. You see a pattern there. As a matter of fact, the sole player that I can think of that had a constant coaching career was Henin.
So this idea that you need coaching until you are of legal drinking age (in the USA) is kind of unproven, and the data don't support it.

You can start college around 17/18 years of age so I can see that you may need a coach for your Freshman and Sophomore years. After that you should be able to compete on your own, financial situation allowing of course.

@ Cuckoo: They scout and prepare, and they go out there with a plan.
Pancho Segura, Jimmy Connors' first coach (together with his mom) would scout opponents and draw strategies on napkins for him. Just an example. But once the match starts, all the great ones were out there by themselves. They knew that facing triple break point, they had to figure it out by themselves.
Also. It would introduce another level of separation between the players. Extreme scenario: YOU go against Coco tomorrow. If coaching is allowed, you and your coach are going against Coco, Moratogliuo, Coco's parents and an entire organization. The top players, if coaching really makes that much of a difference, would gain an extra advantage. Just look at Rafa. He has Moya, but also Carlos Costa, Francis Roig and a couple of extra people in his box. Imagine player ranked #99, alone with his coach, world-non-famous Rupert Mousetrap, having to go against that on top of Rafa. In so many ways, it makes the sport less balanced.

Poor Rupert Mousetrap!

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:00 pm @ Cuckoo: They scout and prepare, and they go out there with a plan.
Pancho Segura, Jimmy Connors' first coach (together with his mom) would scout opponents and draw strategies on napkins for him. Just an example. But once the match starts, all the great ones were out there by themselves. They knew that facing triple break point, they had to figure it out by themselves.
Also. It would introduce another level of separation between the players. Extreme scenario: YOU go against Coco tomorrow. If coaching is allowed, you and your coach are going against Coco, Moratogliuo, Coco's parents and an entire organization. The top players, if coaching really makes that much of a difference, would gain an extra advantage. Just look at Rafa. He has Moya, but also Carlos Costa, Francis Roig and a couple of extra people in his box. Imagine player ranked #99, alone with his coach, world-non-famous Rupert Mousetrap, having to go against that on top of Rafa. In so many ways, it makes the sport less balanced.

Thanks for explaining that. Was Jimmy Connors young at that time when he did the scouting with his coach and mom? Like later when he became older do you think he did it as much?

I know these players have an entire team with them now and I have never really experienced anything like that other than just having a coach and my family in my corner. Once I got to my high school team this past year because my 9th grade year was cancelled because of Covid I had my coach for the team and also my teammates and if a family member came to a match. So it is a little different from all they have in their corner now. I also don't really scout upcoming opponents because most of them there is nothing to scout and I have no clue who they are sometimes.

Once I get into college I guess they will have a trainer for the team as well which will be something totally new for me.

ti-amie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:54 pm
You can start college around 17/18 years of age so I can see that you may need a coach for your Freshman and Sophomore years. After that you should be able to compete on your own, financial situation allowing of course.

Agreed. Also, ditching coaches in college doesn't feel right to me at all. It's a time for learning, whether in sports, academics, or just life. One of the advantages of college sports is definitely the structure and included coaching that you get that help shape you as a player and a person. Doesn't sit right to make tennis the only college sport I can think of that would lack coaches.

Cuckoo4Coco wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:36 pm ...

Thanks for explaining that. Was Jimmy Connors young at that time when he did the scouting with his coach and mom? Like later when he became older do you think he did it as much?

...

Segura coached the young Connors. They remained close all their lives but Segura slowly faded out as coach. Gloria, Connors' mother, truly remained his coach until late in his playing career.

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:12 pm

Cuckoo4Coco wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:36 pm ...

Thanks for explaining that. Was Jimmy Connors young at that time when he did the scouting with his coach and mom? Like later when he became older do you think he did it as much?

...

Segura coached the young Connors. They remained close all their lives but Segura slowly faded out as coach. Gloria, Connors' mother, truly remained his coach until late in his playing career.

Gloria Connors is never (rarely) listed among the ranks of female tennis coaches either.

ponchi101 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:44 pm But. If you get to the stage that you are in college and are still being coached, then WHEN do you learn to navigate the sport at match level?
Plus: There are a considerable number of players that reached the pros and navigated it without a coach by their side. Sampras, Steffi, the Williams, Hingis, Rafa, Nole, Chrissie, Navs, Edberg, Becker, Connors, Borg, Lendl, Mac...... and many more. You see a pattern there. As a matter of fact, the sole player that I can think of that had a constant coaching career was Henin.
So this idea that you need coaching until you are of legal drinking age (in the USA) is kind of unproven, and the data don't support it.

Chrissie always had her dad around to help her... He knew a thing or two about tennis...
I think Tony Pickard started with Edberg pretty early...

I maintain that, at the pro level, coaches are most often just glorified cheerleaders. Some pro coaches have developed a 'good' reputation for themselves based more on their own self-marketing than on actual results.
Pro players know what they're doing. They know how to hit all the shots technically... they know when to select which shot... What coaches mostly help with is the psychological element - self-confidence, belief, etc. - just navigating the tour psychologically and emotionally. And making the hotel reservations and picking up the balls during practice!

Leylah's dad, for example, was never a tennis guy. He's a soccer guy. He can help with the self-confidence, belief, etc. because he knows sports at a high level. He pushes Leylah hard. And even on the days when she's fed up with that pushing, she appreciates it and knows that she is benefiting from it.
But his biggest asset is that he has a wonderful relationship with Leylah. They understand and trust each other implicitly. If ever a separate coach came in to replace him - even if it's some high profile so-called 'expert' coach - there is no possible way that Leylah would have as tight a bond and understanding with the new coach as she has with her dad - and so I'm quite sure she'd lose significantly more than she'd gain.
And that understanding and trust is worth a hell of a lot more than any technical or strategic guidance at the pro level in my opinion.

I have my grandpa and mom who are more the psychological-self confidence part and cheer leaders for me. My coach is that too but he is also the tennis guy who teaches me a lot about technique and how to handle myself on the court. He also supports all the things my mom says as she is the one that pays him like school comes first and only certain amount of hours of training per week and only certain tournaments that my mom has to agree to. The main thing is I know they all are looking out for the best for me. That is what is the most important to me and that is what makes it all so much fun.