ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#91

Post by ponchi101 »

The western, scientifically CORRECT view.
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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#92

Post by ashkor87 »

Sez you
But, as I said, I don't want to go there, this is a forum for tennis..I am only responding because it is Djokovic.
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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#93

Post by mick1303 »

ponchi101 wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:31 am The western, scientifically CORRECT view.
I have a suspicion that if this was Nadal refusing to be vaccinated, you'll rationalize his decision just fine, Western scientific view not withstanding. But as it is now, it's important for Nadal fans to blame Djokovic rather than Australian government of 2022. This is their way of erasing an asterisk that looms over this title.
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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#94

Post by nelslus »

mick1303 wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:43 amI have a suspicion that if this was Nadal refusing to be vaccinated, you'll rationalize his decision just fine, Western scientific view not withstanding. But as it is now, it's important for Nadal fans to blame Djokovic rather than Australian government of 2022. This is their way of erasing an asterisk that looms over this title.
Well, I don't get being such an intense fan of a player, that you can't see when they are just wrong. PLEASE be assured that, if Roger had taken this same stance on vaccinations and COVID- I would have zero issues with him getting banned from tournaments. I'd still have loved his game- but I'd think a lot less of him.

I mean, anyone wants to be revolted by the US and world-wide "responses" to COVID, with 6,804,544 world-wide dead so far? Absolutely. But, regardless- this does not let Novak any kind of hook, to say the least. As individuals, we should care about ourselves and others. Not taking vaccinations puts everyone who comes near you at risk, and then it spreads. I mean, as just some examples:

Novak has admitted to attending an interview and photoshoot while COVID-positive.

According to the NY times, Novak appeared at an event to honor youth tennis players at a tennis center. None of the dozens of people in a group photo from the ceremony, including Djokovic, whose positive test result was confirmed a night earlier, wore a mask.

Novak organized that tennis event, with an after-event party celebration, where Dimitrov and Coric reportedly got COVID. (Who knows if any "citizens" got COVID at these events?)

IMO, bump any thought of, oh, he had all of health issues before. (How many of us have had prior health and medical issues?) His actions, over and over again, have been disgraceful.

I was a HUGE fan of Tiger and Michael Jordan, as examples, for their GOAT games and brilliance. But, with all the crap that has been going on with Tiger, including all of his crazy antics and driving accidents and buddying up and playing golf with Trump? With Jordan never taking any stance on anything ever? I lost a ton of respect for both.

So, I'm not losing any sleep over Novak not being able to play some tennis tournaments. And, as much as I'd love to put asterisks on all of Rafa's Slam titles :gorgeous: - nope, IMO, there is no asterisk, much less over any looming asterisk, concerning Rafa's incredible 2022 Aussie win.
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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#95

Post by Deuce »

Nadal certainly doesn't have the history of odd beliefs and strange behaviour that Djokovic does, and so Nadal likely would not have been criticized as much as Djokovic was, had Nadal made the same decision to not get vaccinated.
But I would not have agreed with the decision any more if Nadal would have been the one who made it.

Sometimes the rules in life change. And sometimes there are very good reasons for why the rules change. And when that happens, it's up to each individual to decide whether or not to abide by the new rules.
Djokovic was one of the very, very few players who decided not to abide by the new rules. He knew the consequences - and so, he essentially decided that he would not play the 2022 Aussie and U.S. Opens.

I think there is more justification for an asterisk for Wimbledon 2022 than for the 2022 Aussie Open - because A) there were more top players missing from that Wimbledon than there were from that Aussie Open, and, more importantly, B) the Russians and Belarusians who were missing at the 2022 had NO CHOICE - they could not have played under any circumstance; it was a situation that was completely beyond their control.
Whereas with Djokovic, the 2022 Aussie and U.S. Opens were situations that were within his control. He chose not to get vaccinated - ok, that's his personal choice, knowing the consequences. I don't agree that it was the right choice, but I can respect it as a personal choice based on not wanting foreign matter in his body. But if he is not getting vaccinated because he denies that COVID-19 exists... or denies that it is a very serious virus - then, no, I do not respect that.

He made his choice knowing the consequences - and he was barred from participating in the Aussie Open and U.S. Open (and, potentially, from some upcoming U.S. tournaments, as well). Ok - he made his choice. The end. I see no justification for anyone whining about it, and certainly not for anyone complaining that it 'wasn't fair'.
R.I.P. Amal...

“The opposite of courage is not cowardice - it’s conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow.”- Jim Hightower
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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#96

Post by Deuce »

Holger Rune is unfairly 'demonized' by some on this message board, in my opinion. The sample size is too small, and Rune too young, for anyone to conclude that he is a 'bad person' in my view. I think a couple of people voiced their strong negative prejudgement of Rune, and some others hopped on the 'bandwagon'.
Also, I think that the guy has the type of face that simply makes him look irritating and annoying - he has the facial features of a prototype school bully.
I, personally, will form my opinion of him only after I've seen considerably more of him.

There has been a rash of withdrawals and in-match retirements of late in both the ATP and the WTA. But last night (or early this morning, actually), Rune did not retire from his match vs. De Minaur...
Rune was cramping very badly in the 3rd set - he could barely walk. Of course some of you - because you've already decided that he's a terrible person - will likely say that he was faking the cramps - because that's what terrible people do.
I watched the match and can say with certainty that he was not faking the cramps.

After playing great for just about 2 full sets - De Minaur upped his game late in the 2nd set to win the set - Rune fell behind 0-3 in the 3rd set, while he was cramping badly. His serves had nothing on them (he threw in a few underhand serves, too, because of the cramps), and be could barely move out there.
Many players - especially today's players - would have retired at some point during the 3rd set if they were cramping like Rune. And one couldn't really blame them.

But Rune fought on. He won the 4th game - somehow. Of course, playing AGAINST an obviously injured player is almost as difficult as BEING the injured player, and De Minaur was making more errors than he should have made against a handicapped opponent.
Eventually, after 15 minutes or so where he could barely move, Rune's cramping seemed to get better to a degree - but they never came close to disappearing. After De Minaur held serve to make it 4-1, Rune won another game...

No, this is not the triumphant story of Rune coming back to win the match amid the severe cramping - he lost the 3rd set 2-6. But he won the battle of pride and respect - because he remained out there, doing his best - until the last point was won by his opponent.

I don't know what the kid's true character is (and I remind all of you that you don't, either)... and I don't know what my opinion of him will be in a year or so, once I've seen enough of him to make a proper assessment... But what I saw from him today impressed me a lot.
R.I.P. Amal...

“The opposite of courage is not cowardice - it’s conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow.”- Jim Hightower
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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#97

Post by mick1303 »

Do not agree on Russian/Belorussian players having no choice. First, I have to say that Wimbledon organizers did not think it through very well. IMO the limiting border of Russians supporting or not supporting their terrorist state shall be material rather than some non-biding statements like "please, stop the war". When Russian (like Rublev) says this - it is not even clear who is he addressing. Maybe he does address his government. Maybe in line with Russian propaganda he thinks that "collective West" is conducting the war against Russia and he is proposing the West to stop supporting Ukraine, so that Russia could quickly prevail. His statements were purposely blurred, so that neither party could blame him. By "material" I mean supporting the state financially through paying taxes. If Russian/Belorussian player pays taxes to his state, he effectively contributes to the war they conduct. If he is the resident of another country and pays his taxes for another country and also does not support Russia voluntarily through donations, then he shall be allowed to play. This is what Wimbledon should've done. And it would've presented fair choice to each Russian player. But even as it was in 2022 - they still had a choice to denounce their citizenship and apply for the citizenship of another country. It is a hard choice and IMO it would be comparable to the choice Djokovic was making on whether or not have a vaccine, given how Djokovic approaches his health.
Also the notion that the vaccinated person is less dangerous for surrounding people is not proven to say the least. I've heard some people from the medical field claiming that this is absolutely false. Vaccine may reduce the severity of the illness for the vaccinated person himself/herself, but (s)he would still be contagious to others all the same.
Deuce wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:03 am Nadal certainly doesn't have the history of odd beliefs and strange behaviour that Djokovic does, and so Nadal likely would not have been criticized as much as Djokovic was, had Nadal made the same decision to not get vaccinated.
But I would not have agreed with the decision any more if Nadal would have been the one who made it.

Sometimes the rules in life change. And sometimes there are very good reasons for why the rules change. And when that happens, it's up to each individual to decide whether or not to abide by the new rules.
Djokovic was one of the very, very few players who decided not to abide by the new rules. He knew the consequences - and so, he essentially decided that he would not play the 2022 Aussie and U.S. Opens.

I think there is more justification for an asterisk for Wimbledon 2022 than for the 2022 Aussie Open - because A) there were more top players missing from that Wimbledon than there were from that Aussie Open, and, more importantly, B) the Russians and Belarusians who were missing at the 2022 had NO CHOICE - they could not have played under any circumstance; it was a situation that was completely beyond their control.
Whereas with Djokovic, the 2022 Aussie and U.S. Opens were situations that were within his control. He chose not to get vaccinated - ok, that's his personal choice, knowing the consequences. I don't agree that it was the right choice, but I can respect it as a personal choice based on not wanting foreign matter in his body. But if he is not getting vaccinated because he denies that COVID-19 exists... or denies that it is a very serious virus - then, no, I do not respect that.

He made his choice knowing the consequences - and he was barred from participating in the Aussie Open and U.S. Open (and, potentially, from some upcoming U.S. tournaments, as well). Ok - he made his choice. The end. I see no justification for anyone whining about it, and certainly not for anyone complaining that it 'wasn't fair'.
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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#98

Post by Deuce »

mick1303 wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:27 am Do not agree on Russian/Belorussian players having no choice. First, I have to say that Wimbledon organizers did not think it through very well. IMO the limiting border of Russians supporting or not supporting their terrorist state shall be material rather than some non-biding statements like "please, stop the war". When Russian (like Rublev) says this - it is not even clear who is he addressing. Maybe he does address his government. Maybe in line with Russian propaganda he thinks that "collective West" is conducting the war against Russia and he is proposing the West to stop supporting Ukraine, so that Russia could quickly prevail. His statements were purposely blurred, so that neither party could blame him. By "material" I mean supporting the state financially through paying taxes. If Russian/Belorussian player pays taxes to his state, he effectively contributes to the war they conduct. If he is the resident of another country and pays his taxes for another country and also does not support Russia voluntarily through donations, then he shall be allowed to play. This is what Wimbledon should've done. And it would've presented fair choice to each Russian player. But even as it was in 2022 - they still had a choice to denounce their citizenship and apply for the citizenship of another country. It is a hard choice and IMO it would be comparable to the choice Djokovic was making on whether or not have a vaccine, given how Djokovic approaches his health.
Also the notion that the vaccinated person is less dangerous for surrounding people is not proven to say the least. I've heard some people from the medical field claiming that this is absolutely false. Vaccine may reduce the severity of the illness for the vaccinated person himself/herself, but (s)he would still be contagious to others all the same.
I know and respect that you are in a difficult situation in Ukraine, Mick... but you're not being reasonable in stating that Russian and Belarussian players had the choice of 'denouncing their citizenship and applying for the citizenship of another country'.
Firstly, a step like this is not done flippantly - it requires a great deal of analytic thought about the many aspects and elements involved in such a decision. Secondly, changing one's citizenship to another country is not something that is accomplished in a day or two. There surely was not the time to consider all of the elements involved and get all of the paperwork done in time to enter the Wimbledon draw.

Lastly, I will say that getting a vaccine - or even two vaccines - against a potentially deadly virus is something which can quite obviously be accomplished much more quickly and easily than can a change of citizenship.

Your point on Rublev's 'No War' statement being rather generic, and lacking specificity is well taken. Most of us assumed that it was targeted at the aggressors in the 'war', which is the Russians (I, personally, prefer the term 'invasion' to the term 'war', as I believe 'invasion' is a more accurate description). But, realistically, we don't know what Rublev truly meant by his statement. It can be safely assumed, I believe, that he meant that he doesn't like that the 'war' between Russia and Ukraine is happening, and wants it to stop. From that, the assumption is then made that he is addressing the party which started the 'war', which is Russia. But to be more sure, we'd have to hear him say something along those lines.
R.I.P. Amal...

“The opposite of courage is not cowardice - it’s conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow.”- Jim Hightower
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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#99

Post by ashkor87 »

how many Americans and Brits stood up to their governments when they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan? At least they didnt have to risk their lives to do that - Russians and Belarusians do! Let us give them a break..
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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#100

Post by Suliso »

Tennis is an exception in allowing Rusians and Belorussians to compete. They're banned from many sports and probably rightly so.
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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#101

Post by ashkor87 »

very interesting contrast between the two semis at Acapulco.. both Paul and Fritz seems slow and leaden-footed compared with Rune and DeMinaur! of course, the court is slow, so foot speed is not all that critical..
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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#102

Post by mick1303 »

ashkor87 wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:30 am how many Americans and Brits stood up to their governments when they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan? At least they didnt have to risk their lives to do that - Russians and Belarusians do! Let us give them a break..
Maybe the reason why not many Americans were protesting Iraq/Afghanistan invasions is that situation back then was much less clear. There were actual real terrorists there, not imaginary "Nazis". And those terrorists were committing their deeds on American soil. For Russia to invade Ukraine there was zero justification. It was just an act of land-grabbing. Something Americans/Brits never intended to do in the recent wars.
And the risks for celebrity while exist, still much less than for regular people. Plenty of famous Russian people (especially artists/musicians) gave very strong and unambiguous opinions against Putin regime. Yes, they paid for this having to remain outside of Russia. But they done it nonetheless. Namely Boris Grebenschikov ("Aquarium") and Andrey Makarevich ("Time Machine"). Coincidentally, my favorites since I was at school. Tennis players are celebrities. And they can afford to move their families outside of Russia.
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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#103

Post by ashkor87 »

The terrorists were Saudis, trained in Pakistan..we all know Iraq had nothing to do with them. Was Iraq threatening the US? The war crimes committed in Iraq are comparable to what Russia is doing in Ukraine..this isn't the forum to argue about such things but the hypocrisy of calling for bans on Russians and Belarusians is beyond belief. That is the only reason I mention it here. And, as I said, Russian and Belarusian players would be risking their lives.
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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#104

Post by Suliso »

ashkor87 wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 1:27 pm The terrorists were Saudis, trained in Pakistan..we all know Iraq had nothing to do with them. Was Iraq threatening the US? The war crimes committed in Iraq are comparable to what Russia is doing in Ukraine..this isn't the forum to argue about such things but the hypocrisy of calling for bans on Russians and Belarusians is beyond belief. That is the only reason I mention it here. And, as I said, Russian and Belarusian players would be risking their lives.
I'll give you a benefit of a doubt of not being well informed about events in Ukraine here.
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Re: ATP 500 Dubai, Acapulco 2/27 - 3/4 2023

#105

Post by ashkor87 »

Suliso wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 1:34 pm
ashkor87 wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 1:27 pm The terrorists were Saudis, trained in Pakistan..we all know Iraq had nothing to do with them. Was Iraq threatening the US? The war crimes committed in Iraq are comparable to what Russia is doing in Ukraine..this isn't the forum to argue about such things but the hypocrisy of calling for bans on Russians and Belarusians is beyond belief. That is the only reason I mention it here. And, as I said, Russian and Belarusian players would be risking their lives.
I'll give you a benefit of a doubt of not being well informed about events in Ukraine here.
Thank you, not needed. I am as well-informed as anyone could be..we can read the Guardian and NYT here too.
But as I said, I don't want to sully the atmosphere on a tennis forum by arguing about it. I have kept silent all this time, the villification of Russian and Belarusian players became more than I could take.
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