Covid-19 Updates & Info

[ponchi101]

Here's the latest Situation Report. The big news? It turns out COVID infection likely decreases sperm quality--at least in the short term. This also marks the first time I have seen experts linking long COVID to the need to expand our thinking as to what constitutes long-term disability. I'm surprised it took so long.

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Not putting you on, but a serious question: how would you define long term disability? What would constitute one?

[dryrunguy]

Here's the latest Situation Report. The big news? It turns out COVID infection likely decreases sperm quality--at least in the short term. This also marks the first time I have seen experts linking long COVID to the need to expand our thinking as to what constitutes long-term disability. I'm surprised it took so long.

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Not putting you on, but a serious question: how would you define long term disability? What would constitute one?

No, it's a good question.

The answer is... I'm not sure. I know how it worked for dolphins. He collapsed at work in 2011. They thought it was a cardiac episode at first, but tests confirmed that it was related to his blood pressure. Then, it turned out his blood pressure was related to degenerative disc disease.

He applied for disability because he could no longer work. It simply wasn't possible. His disability was denied at first. That took several months.

Then we hired an attorney. Several months later, dolphins appeared with his attorney before the administrative law judge with the fourth highest denial rate in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The hearing was scheduled for 30 minutes.

Dolphins was out of there in 10 minutes. Disability approved, including all back benefits from the time he applied. (Almost all of which went to the attorney.)

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Now, back to your question... If you can't work, and the likelihood that you could ever return to work is pretty low, then you deserve disability. How do you define that? I don't know. And the internet is full of videos of disabled people doing all sorts of physical activities. Some of that criticism is legitimate. But at other times, is there really something wrong with a person who can't do manual things 6 days a week doing something manual on the 7th day? When they are feeling pretty good?

As it relates to COVID, I don't think we really know how it applies. The evidence suggests long COVID can linger for months or years. (We're not yet 2 years into the pandemic. So what does "years" mean?)

But in the end, I suspect we'll have a very large number of people with long COVID who will never work again--nor should they. It would be either impossible or dangerous.

And then you'll have a lot of people diagnosed with long COVID that actually get better, but they'll try to abuse the system as it relates to disability to avoid work.

And then you'll have a lot of people who have long COVID, refuse to apply for disability (maybe because of pride, maybe because of refusal to apply for "assistance"), continue to work, perform poorly because they really can't work, and get fired. What happens next? Not sure.

And then you'll have a lot of people with long COVID who continue to work, get injured or have poor health outcomes, and then sue their employers for workers' compensation when really the problem was long COVID.

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Those are just a few scenarios. The possibilities are endless.

Ponchi, did I answer your question? Or just muddy the waters? But yes, I know from personal experience that long-term/permanent disability is a real thing. I see it every day.

[dryrunguy]

Here's the latest Situation Report. The big news? It turns out COVID infection likely decreases sperm quality--at least in the short term. This also marks the first time I have seen experts linking long COVID to the need to expand our thinking as to what constitutes long-term disability. I'm surprised it took so long.

::

...

Not putting you on, but a serious question: how would you define long term disability? What would constitute one?

Shorter answer...

If your body is such that you have to say to your employer, "Yes, I can physically work. Some days. I'll let you know when those days are. On those days," then you're probably a good candidate for long-term disability.

Obviously, I'm not talking about days when you are physically able to work but just don't feel like it.

[ponchi101]

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Ponchi, did I answer your question? Or just muddy the waters? But yes, I know from personal experience that long-term/permanent disability is a real thing. I see it every day.

I don't think is a question that can be answered algorithmically. You know, if you have A and B, but C is suspect, go to D...
That was the reason I was asking. Taking an extreme example: Stephen Hawkins. The man was clearly disabled, yet he led a very productive life because he had special abilities that were suited for his line of work. And then I bet we all know that friend or person that is physically in perfect conditions, yet really can't work at anything.
That was the reason I was asking. Your exposition is very helpful but, as you say, there is not one metric.

[JazzNU]

They've needed to expand the definition of long term disability for a long time, so that would be a very positive development out of all of this mess and hopefully it wouldn't just be about covid because the general things they list are among those that people struggle getting approved for. Which also makes me skeptical many changes will happen.

Short term disability tends to be one or two weeks to 6 months and then long term disability is longer than 6 months. The length of time depends on your employee benefits basically.

What @dry is talking about is SSDI, which are governmental benefits for those that are disabled long term. Administered by Social Security Administration. Eligible to those that have worked for a certain period of time and paid into SS.

There are many things that qualify someone for disability, but the general idea is that they are too sick to work, that they have a medically verifiable ailment or physical or mental impairment that severely limits their daily activity and ability to work. For SSDI/SSI, there are some diagnoses that get presumptively approved, diseases with outlooks so poor, they'll basically be rubber stamped.


As for @dry's story of getting Dolphins disability. Disability denial rates in appeals are vastly, and I do mean vastly, different for those that hire an attorney and those that skip them. So let this be a PSA for anyone that doesn't know this - Always hire an attorney if you need it to be approved for SSDI the first time you appeal, don't go through the motions thinking you'll figure it out on your own if time is of the essence. If you can afford to wait, you might be able to save some money, assuming you get approved on your own. But it will never be that expensive, there are SSA rules capping the amounts you have to pay disability attorneys and you don't have to pay them upfront. So, it's good to think of the mental toll in addition to what you would save. It's a stressful process for many especially dealing with the denials and appeals, so drawing it out may not be worth the savings for some

[JazzNU]

I don't think is a question that can be answered algorithmically. You know, if you have A and B, but C is suspect, go to D...
That was the reason I was asking. Taking an extreme example: Stephen Hawkins. The man was clearly disabled, yet he led a very productive life because he had special abilities that were suited for his line of work. And then I bet we all know that friend or person that is physically in perfect conditions, yet really can't work at anything.
That was the reason I was asking. Your exposition is very helpful but, as you say, there is not one metric.

ALS is one of the conditions that gets approved quickly. But Stephen wouldn't have qualified because he was working, there are rules on what you can earn if you're on SSDI/SSI. Many, many disabled persons work, so it's not just the disease, but how it limits your overall livelihood. As for people in perfect physical condition and not being able to work, assuming you don't mean someone with a mental illness that is severely limiting their daily life, that person is unlikely to get approved for SSDI/SSI. It takes a lot of verifiable information to get approved. And the SSA will happily prosecute anyone if they attempt to defraud them. Happily. They've got thousands devoted to it. So if anyone's goal is to spend several months to a few years in federal prison, this is a good way to go about it.

[ponchi101]

I was only using Hawkins as an example of a disabled person that was still very productive, just to be clear. All your points are very valid (you are obviously more versed on the subject than I am) but I am in this conversation as a listener.
So thanks

[dryrunguy]

They've needed to expand the definition of long term disability for a long time, so that would be a very positive development out of all of this mess and hopefully it wouldn't just be about covid because the general things they list are among those that people struggle getting approved for. Which also makes me skeptical many changes will happen.

Short term disability tends to be one or two weeks to 6 months and then long term disability is longer than 6 months. The length of time depends on your employee benefits basically.

What @dry is talking about is SSDI, which are governmental benefits for those that are disabled long term. Administered by Social Security Administration. Eligible to those that have worked for a certain period of time and paid into SS.

There are many things that qualify someone for disability, but the general idea is that they are too sick to work, that they have a medically verifiable ailment or physical or mental impairment that severely limits their daily activity and ability to work. For SSDI/SSI, there are some diagnoses that get presumptively approved, diseases with outlooks so poor, they'll basically be rubber stamped.


As for @dry's story of getting Dolphins disability. Disability denial rates in appeals are vastly, and I do mean vastly, different for those that hire an attorney and those that skip them. So let this be a PSA for anyone that doesn't know this - Always hire an attorney if you need it to be approved for SSDI the first time you appeal, don't go through the motions thinking you'll figure it out on your own if time is of the essence. If you can afford to wait, you might be able to save some money, assuming you get approved on your own. But it will never be that expensive, there are SSA rules capping the amounts you have to pay disability attorneys and you don't have to pay them upfront. So, it's good to think of the mental toll in addition to what you would save. It's a stressful process for many especially dealing with the denials and appeals, so drawing it out may not be worth the savings for some

Just to clarify, dolphins doesn't get SSDI. He gets Social Security and Medicare. He made too much as a worker to qualify for SSDI. As you know, qualifying for disability and qualifying for SSDI are two different things.

A coal miner in West Virginia experiencing long COVID who earned a modest salary would probably qualify for SSDI. Dolphins made decent coin before all hell broke loose. And that's why he doesn't qualify for SSDI. He receives the maximum benefit possible. And what he gets is enough to cover his bills.

But the story for a lot of other people is quite different.

[dryrunguy]

That said, should people who experience long COVID who weren't vaccinated be punished when it comes to receiving disability benefits associated with long COVID?

I really struggle with that question.

[ponchi101]

Indeed. It opens the door for people that have made bad choices in their lives (i.e. smoking) and get affected by that.
Punishing idiocy would a bad precedent.

[JazzNU]

Just to clarify, dolphins doesn't get SSDI. He gets Social Security and Medicare. He made too much as a worker to qualify for SSDI. As you know, qualifying for disability and qualifying for SSDI are two different things.

A coal miner in West Virginia experiencing long COVID who earned a modest salary would probably qualify for SSDI. Dolphins made decent coin before all hell broke loose. And that's why he doesn't qualify for SSDI. He receives the maximum benefit possible. And what he gets is enough to cover his bills.

But the story for a lot of other people is quite different.

SSDI doesn't have an income qualification, it's essentially getting your Social Security benefits earlier once you are ruled to have a long term disability. SSI is what you're referring to, which is need-based and has different qualifying criteria. For instance, you can qualify even if you don't have the required work history with this one. Children with severe disabilities, the blind, they can qualify for SSI. Both administered by SSA.

[mmmm8]

There is not only no definition (other than the general "incapacity to work"), there are not really any standards in most jurisdictions around the world. Although some conditions as noted are likely/likelier to be approved, whether by the government or private insurance, these vary by country/region (and by private insurer). And then of course the subjectivity of a bunch of people comes in from doctors to judges. One of the most difficult areas is mental health. Claims around this are increasing almost everywhere.

With some long COVID effects being kind of nebulous (brain fog, fatigue), good luck indeed figuring out how disability would apply.

[JazzNU]

That is why I'm skeptical. Not saying it's not good that some in Congress are looking into it because it is sure to have an effect on the numbers in the work force, but the problems listed in the report associated with long Covid - fatigue, shortness of breath, brain fog, stress and anxiety - typically have a much harder time with getting federal disability when there's not another diagnosis along with it. Much better chance at getting short or long term disability with your employer if your condition is debilitating. And maybe that's part of what they'll do, make certain private insurers are carving out broader definitions for disability to be approved. And if it's not permanent (something they can't possibly know right now), that might be a good solution because you'd hope that most of those suffering from long covid that aren't over retirement age would eventually return to their job or at least the workforce just as most do with other drawn out illnesses.

Gonna try to remain hopeful on this one, it would be a welcome change in general to be more open to what the definition of disability is. People tend to think it can only look a certain way unfortunately.

Somewhat related, there was a great thread on Twitter the other day of people posting about their chronic illnesses and pre-existing conditions to try to get people thinking differently about what someone who is at high risk for covid looks like. It went viral so a good number of people saw it and others started posting their own and those too went viral, but only time will tell if it has any effect in starting to change how people think about these things.

[ti-amie]

[ti-amie]